Life-changing jazz albums: ‘Coleman Hawkins Encounters Ben Webster’

When I heard Coleman Hawkins Encounters Ben Webster (released as Blue Saxophones in the UK), I couldn’t believe that these two guys could make the tenor saxophone sound like that, could bring such personality. I realised, these are two masters; and that if I’m going to study anybody, it should be them. They made it so personable – there was all this humanity between them.

I was probably about 15. I’d been into jazz since I started playing the saxophone – in fact, jazz is what attracted me to the instrument. I got brought up in the church and my parents thought jazz was the devil’s music. My father was superintendent of the Sunday school, my mum was music director of the church and played organ. But we had a backhouse, and I made that my woodshed. So I wasn’t technically playing jazz in the house, I was playing jazz in the backhouse! That’s how I got around that.

“After my mum died, it was just my father and his three boys. We kids had more time alone; and I brought my stereo into the house, into my bedroom and bought some speakers. I played everything at half-speed – at 16rpm instead of 33rpm. That way I learned the solos. It wasn’t like now, where you can just press a button and get the solo out in front of you, all the notes.

I would play straight through the record; and their dissimilarities would force me to change what I did. When Coleman Hawkins played, his rhythm was so dominant; whereas Ben Webster’s sound and vibrato stood out when he played. I wanted both! I never saw either of them live. But a friend of mine, Steve Potts, told me that one time he got a chance to play alongside Ben Webster, and he said you couldn’t stand too close to Ben ‘cause you might get hit with some spit! There was air in his sound. He was so dynamic because you could hear the note before he played it – you could hear his breath forming the note before it actually came out.

Coleman Hawkins was quite different: [sings line of notes in Hawkins-like style]. Whereas Ben was: [exhales and slurs in Webster-like style]. Coleman Hawkins was like fighting with an axe, Ben Webster was like fighting with a feather! I absorbed both. As years went by, and I became a man, I didn’t want to sound like either one of them. They were just milestones and bookmarks for my own individuality. Though I actually recorded ‘You’d Be So Nice To Come Home To’ years later because of that album ….

Before that record, I was really into Paul Gonsalves from the Ellington band; but this was a step higher. I can honestly say that it changed the way I saw things – I realised I wanted to be out in front of a band. As a teenager, I was playing with a lot of R&B bands, blues bands, backing up bad singers. I played in a 21-piece orchestra, and we’d go into country clubs. I learned a lot of old tunes through that. That stayed with me, even though I wasn’t particularly into big band. Maybe 10 years after, when I came to New York and was part of the loft jazz scene, there were a lot of guys around me that only knew how to play one thing – around that time they used to call it avant garde. They played like they hadn’t absorbed anything; whereas I had all this history in my back pocket. I had more references than many of them had; which is why maybe I ended up being quite dominant during that period.

Where I grew up, a lot of people round me weren’t into jazz and I don’t remember anyone turning me on to this album. I probably saw it in a record store. I didn’t know about Ben Webster then; but I would have bought it because Coleman Hawkins was on it, him being the father of the tenor saxophone. There were several record stores on Telegraph Avenue [Oakland, California], so it would have been in one of those.

I’ve actually bought it three times in my life. My wife remembers the last time, ‘cause it wasn’t long ago. Every 20 years, it seems to come up again, and I have to have it. I’ve bought vinyl, then CD and then vinyl again!

This article originally appeared in the September 2024 issue of Jazzwise. Whether you want to enjoy Jazzwise online, explore our Reviews Database or our huge archive of issues, or simply receive the magazine through your door every month, we've got the perfect subscription for you. Find out more at magsubscriptions.com